Comment

Comment by XLFD on January 19, 2014 at 1:48am

On MLK Day weekend, it is not necessarily bad to be discussing an issue like this, but I think Willy's conclusion is correct.  As far as bathrooms and locker rooms were concerned, back in King's time, blacks could not use some of them because of their race, due to segregation.  Most will agree that it was wrong. 

Progressives will say this is a similar civil rights issue but it is not.  Coy can use any boy's/men's bathroom or locker room because he is physically a boy.  The fixtures are made for his physiology, not his psychology.  Segregation of the sexes for communal bathrooms is not denying anybody any rights to use the bathroom's functions. 

Comment by Willy on January 19, 2014 at 12:16am

This discussion shines a light on just how far apart progressives and conservatives are in beliefs and ideals. A conservative would question the validity of a  diagnosis of someone claiming to be emotionally opposite of their physical sex and would offer a solution of continuing  the use of toilet facilities that match their physical nature or use a neutral staff bathroom and suggest the parents solve this issue privately with counseling if necessary.

A Progressive automatically believes someone who claims to be transgender then wants the school to allow the individual to invade the privacy of all of the children of the opposite sex by allowing the transgender student access to be in an intimate setting with them. Then progressives insist that  the entire school be reeducated to accept the lifestyle of homosexuals, gays, lesbians, transgenders, cross dressers, drag queens  and any other abnormal type of behavior they deem  necessary that they need to expose small children to. Progressives do not care if children's religious beliefs contradict the actions they propose to expose kids to indoctrination of alternative life styles. If the parents and kids do not agree with progressives indoctrination, teaching and lifestyles they are called bigots, homophobic, prejudice, narrow minded and a dozen other silly names. Do you ever wonder why there are so many Christian schools and why they are so successful in their education of children. Do you wonder why public schools are behind the Christian private schools in most test scores and why many public schools are run like the house of the rising sun. Girls in public schools dress like whores and act like it. Boys and girls alike are subjected to harassment and bullying. Drugs run rampant. The drop out rate is horrendous. And folks like you want to add to this, boys and girls using the bathrooms together. Give me a break.

Comment by Willy on January 18, 2014 at 11:52pm

William. you've gone off the deep end. Do you also suggest that a transgender boy  in middle or high school be allowed to use the  girls  locker room for showering with girls because he says he is really a female?

Comment by AQUAMAN on January 18, 2014 at 10:56pm

berkly, what exactly are you and this thread here trying to accomplish? If you want to inform people of this as a nationwide problem, affecting literally thousands of individuals, you are not going to accomplish it on this local Torch forum. Join and promote your ideas to a nationwide group. If you wish to get some laws/rules changed for these transgender types, we aren't in that business either. Write letters, send emails, and show your face at your state representatives offices, legislatures, congress, and the US Senate, they are in the business of creating/changing laws. Your story, that of a California 6 year old boy, doesn't fit in around west Michigan, nor that of Ludington. Perhaps you should reside out west in Cal. and make your case there, where it's in hot debate. I have witnessed this thread go in circles for 3 weeks now, and you haven't stated your desired objective to this forum's membership. What's germane about the entire situation to Ludington politics, or even the State of Michigan politics? You are pounding a drum of repeated privileges that aren't this group's power to make a new civil rights case about. Maybe the ACLU, not the Torch. I agree with Streeter, the issue is Privacy, not some convoluted interpretation of it. I also agree with XLFD, you are not embracing diversity, just the opposite, you want it squashed. This issue seems to be your own pet peeve, and not in line with what most of us discuss here daily about the local scene. And again I ask with all due respect, wth are you trying to accomplish or achieve with Ludington folks on this California issue that has you fussing and fuming about for 3 weeks steady on this moot subject of special rights for the very very few, and the very very young? Bullying and teasing have gone on since man's existence, and changing any laws for this situation, aren't going to stop those whom act like this in any shape, way, or form. And please, don't keep paraphrasing and quoting other members' opinions and posts. It leads one to believe that you have nothing more than contempt and anger with anyone that won't agree with you. That's childish, condescending, and pretty insensitive on your part, as it appears you have a closed mindset at your young and inexperienced age. The first thing any respectable college student must embrace is to be objective, studious, filled with hope and pride, and to absorb as much learning as possible. This is what will identify you in the years ahead as a productive adult, not a bitter and resentful individual out to conquer the world for a specific group. Change is about us everyday, change comes slow mostly, with patience and persistence, and courtesy towards your fellow folks, you can certainly achieve more than just trying to bully others into your own beliefs. You grasshopper, have a long road ahead to true success and respect among your peers. Besides this all taken into consideration, Coy the Boy is home-schooling now, where he doesn't have to worry about bullying etc..

Comment by William berkly on January 18, 2014 at 10:25pm

     "William, you are not embracing diversity, just the opposite.  You do not respect the rights of those who you want to force your own ideas of morality on".     Everyone deserves the right to use the bathroom. Don't mistake me, I absolutely dislike your opinion on this issue, but I wouldn't go as far as saying that you shouldn't have the right to state your opinion. Everyone does, and I respect that. What I don't respect is when one group of people has be oppressed, by the majority, for decades upon decades. I can think of no reason why transgender students shouldn't be allowed to use the bathrooms. 

      "When you give rights to a select group of people who identify with some mental state, in this case, trangenders, those are not rights, they are privileges, which other boys will not have, and that other girls using their own bathroom have a duty to not get upset at".     What privilege do transgender people have over boys and girls? For the longest time, they weren't allowed to use a public facility based on their gender. Schools were discriminating against them. The transgender plight is for equal protection under the law to use the bathroom. That's it! Nothing more. 

     "These are privileges that the civil rights movement actually fought against, and I am surprised an intelligent individual like yourself cannot see that".   You're right, the civil rights movement did fight against privileges. However, they didn't demand that they received privileges in return, they wanted equal rights just like the LGBT community wants right now. The ability to use the bathroom in a public place isn't a privilege, it's a right. 

     "What if we include with transgender boys the groups of boys-uncomfortable-with-seeing-other-boys'-penises, boys-curious-about-girl-parts, etc., until the concept of gender-specific bathrooms are meaningless"?    Giving transgender people the right to use the bathroom wouldn't lead to the collapse of gender oriented bathrooms. It's that sort of paranoia that leads towards more, and more ignorance on this topic. 

     "You wish to make someone feel comfortable about their dysphoric condition by giving them privileges, while making the vast majority uncomfortable and deny their own rights in the process".     Rights are only pure when they're applied universally. We need to understand that transgender people do not want anything else but to protect under the law to use the bathroom, just like anyone else. 

Comment by XLFD on January 18, 2014 at 8:44pm

William, you are not embracing diversity, just the opposite.  You do not respect the rights of those who you want to force your own ideas of morality on.  When you give rights to a select group of people who identify with some mental state, in this case, trangenders, those are not rights, they are privileges, which other boys will not have, and that other girls using their own bathroom have a duty to not get upset at.  These are privileges that the civil rights movement actually fought against, and I am surprised an intelligent individual like yourself cannot see that.

What if we include with transgender boys the groups of boys-uncomfortable-with-seeing-other-boys'-penises, boys-curious-about-girl-parts, etc., until the concept of gender-specific bathrooms are meaningless?  You wish to make someone feel comfortable about their dysphoric condition by giving them privileges, while making the vast majority uncomfortable and deny their own rights in the process.  It's not rational unless your goal is to get rid of gender-specific bathrooms or something similar.

Comment by William berkly on January 18, 2014 at 8:14pm

     "This is the problem with our country today. Most would rather argue irrelevant issues for days and months, rather than correcting the inherent problem itself,"PRIVACY"!!".   While this issue does bring up the rights to privacy, it also brings up gender identity, discrimination in schools, discrimination in public spaces, the changing tides of social progress slowly letting lose old traditions, and embracing diversity. 

Comment by William berkly on January 18, 2014 at 8:09pm

      "the right to privacy of those (what you may call) close-minded people who are not willing to undress or do other activities in front of someone who is physically of the other sex".  It's not like whenever I walk into a male bathroom, I'm suddenly barraged by the view of others penis's. I have never even seen a penis in male bathroom (except my own). This is because social norms make us not look at each other will we use the bathroom. This norm also applies to transgender people, who (when they need to go to the bathroom) quickly go to a stall, and do their business. I don't know why people think that when you throw a transgender person into the mix, that suddenly that transgender person is going to show their penis. 

      "Should their rights (what you may label 'unreasonable prejudices') be denied simply because they must assume the duty to appease a small amount of dysphoric transgender people"?     Your rights aren't going to be taken away just because a transgender person used the bathroom. Transgender people aren't going to purposely look at others genitals, they aren't going to be breaking anyone else's privacy, they aren't going to be looking over/under the stall doors or walls. All they want is to use a stall, and urinate/defecate. 

       "I can guarantee a lot of red-blooded boys will gladly take this loosely defined label just so they can go into the girl's bathroom and locker room, as would some curious girls to check out boys". Which is why I want to go on a case by case basis. The school can easily call the students parents/guardians, or get a medical doctor to verify that this student isn't faking, but is indeed transgender. 

Comment by William berkly on January 18, 2014 at 7:47pm

    " When most people advocate for rights for the LGBT community, they must remember that allowing "transgender students to use the specific bathroom or locker room that they feel comfortable with" conflicts with the rights of boys and girls who have not that type of dysphoria ".    Transgender individuals are not asking for male, and female students, to change everything about their bathroom rights. All they want is to use the bathroom. Giving the rights for these students doesn't take away from everyone else. 

     "(which BTW is the far greater majority)". Even if the anti-LGBT people were in the majority, it really wouldn't matter to the argument. Saying that your belief has more supporters doesn't prove to me that your belief is right. All that says is, " Hey, look, we have supporters... yeah". 

      "That forces a duty on them that is just as onerous than what the transgender encounters". Are you saying that the slim chance your daughter/son might see a penis/vagina in the bathroom is worse than the discrimination LGBT members have to go through?  That doesn't make any sense. Your daughter/son will eventually see a vagina/penis in their lives, but the LGBT members have through a gauntlet of harassment, bullying, and physiological damage so much that their suicide rate is 30%. While giving transgender people the right to use public bathrooms in schools isn't going to end discrimination, it'll definitely relive some of the pain.

    " Likewise, if they feel they are transgender and do not identify themselves as 'homosexual' in that regard, then they should actually be excited about being in a locker room full of the gender that they find desirable".   Being transgender, and being gay, isn't synonymous. Transgender people can like men or woman, just like how a man can like a man or a woman, or how a woman can like man or a woman. Sexual orientation doesn't play a role as to who gets to use what bathroom, since gay men use men's bathrooms, and gay women use women's bathrooms. 

  

Comment by XLFD on January 18, 2014 at 7:37pm

William, I'm not saying (and I can't speak for john s.) bathroom cameras is relevant to any transgender issue but it does relate to an issue that you fail to address, the right to privacy of those (what you may call) close-minded people who are not willing to undress or do other activities in front of someone who is physically of the other sex.  A locker room and bathroom already has deference to this right to privacy.  Many people do not want to lose that right.  Should their rights (what you may label 'unreasonable prejudices') be denied simply because they must assume the duty to appease a small amount of dysphoric transgender people?  I can guarantee a lot of red-blooded boys will gladly take this loosely defined label just so they can go into the girl's bathroom and locker room, as would some curious girls to check out boys.  It's the proverbial can of worms. 

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