The upcoming health care vote

[Dave]

I pretty much look at it from this perspective, if your the democratic party and you can't even get all of your own party members to sign on to vote with you.. at least not without using gimmicks and tricks like reconciliation (yes, I know both the dem's and republicans have used it before... doesn't make it right when it was used before), then maybe the bill wasn't so great to begin with. I've said it a 100 times before that there are things that do need to be fixed with health care but I don't believe this bill to be the answer.

[AQUAMAN]

Saddest thing to me is this one bill is taking up all the time of both houses for over a year. And the darn thing doesn't even take effect for another 3 or 4 years. Why don't both parties get some other works/jobs/immigration/tax reduction/business incentive/anything bills underway. If they were paid on the basis of working to get something done, they would all be fired. It's a National Joke now imho. At least set the darn thing aside for a couple months, or just start all over next year on it. These people should all be recalled for negligence and loitering in DC.

[Dave]

I'm not real enthused with any of the bozo's in Washington, specially with this health care fiasco. When it became obvious that there were going to be issues with the bill, they should of backed off and worked on other things that are important, like jobs. I don't care for the fact either that even if the bill is passed that while we will pay for it for 3 or 4 years that we won't see the effects of it in the health care field for that 3 or 4 years.

[Guidothesemipsuedocaptitalistpig]

It should go to prove that some of the more extreme views like Rush maybe correct this is not at all about helping the average American who really only wanted reforms. This really is an ideological challenge to what form of government America should have. Liberal spew true democracy, Where is our constitution was deliberately set forth to be a limited Federal government Republic. A true democracy that is 50+1% actually would either become anarchy.. Or a very powerful federal government would take over completely.
We dont really teach what socialism is in school anymore but I found this piece to be a good argument by knowledgeable people why it cant work.

"socialist command economy could not adequately transmit information about prices and productive quotas due to the lack of a price mechanism, and as a result it could not make rational economic decisions. Ludwig von Mises argued that a socialist economy was not possible at all, because of the impossibility of rational pricing of capital goods in a socialist economy since the state is the only owner of the capital goods. Hayek further argued that the social control over distribution of wealth and private property advocated by socialists cannot be achieved without reduced prosperity for the general populace, and a loss of political and economic freedoms."
Many of Obama's cabinet members are either very socialist or at least progressive to the point of not seeing that progression to be contradictory to our Constitutions intent.

[XLFD]

Unfortunately for the Dems, Obama has shown that he isn't as politically flexible as Clinton was back in the early '90s when he wasted his political capital on health care bill 1 and gays in the military, before coming to his senses by not working against the Contract With America. Helped him get re-elected in '96, that's for sure.

[Guidothesemipsuedocaptitalistpig]

XL I am not at all sure it isn't Pelosi and Reid (as incompetent as they appear to me) trying to wag the dog instead of the other way around though ... What do you think?

[XLFD]

The definite lack of Obama's executive experience and acumen makes that a very good possibility. After all Harry was his 'boss' in the Senate, and Barack is concerned alot more with style rather than substance. Nor do I see Obama taking any leadership roll in his 'campaign issues' which were alot more centrist than what's been done so far.

[Mary A.]

I'm all for health care reform, but this monstrosity will be no help to me, I'm afraid. I'm worried that if I lose my job, I won't be able to afford the premiums on an individual plan until I'm eligible for Medicare. Three to four years in the future will do me no good, and in that interim period I can imagine the insurance companies taking advantage of every trick they can think of to rape their subscribers and rake in the dough until they have to comply with the law.

I came across something called the Coffee Party Movement on Facebook. It has over 160,000 fans as of today. Here is the mission statement:

"We the People demand: Reason and civility in public affairs; A government accountable to the People; Liberty & Justice for All.

Join a local chapter, and participate in our discussion boards at:
http://CoffeePartyUSA.com"

This group is more up my alley than the Tea Party Movement. I believe in paying my fair share of taxes for the common good, but I want to see something in it for me with my tax dollars.

We have a runaway, polarized Congress that can't get anything done in the traditional manner. They make no bones that centrists are not welcome in their midst. They'll pay this fall, though, I hope. One of the media polls indicated that 75% of American people are unhappy with Congress. Unfortunately, it may be too late if this bill has already passed. We are certainly venturing into uncharted territory. I think the fear factor is real and justified.

[Guidothesemipsuedocaptitalistpig]

The "coffee party" movement is if you do some research.. the Liberal answer to the Tea party movement. If you dont like what is already passing through congress you really will be getting a snow job following the leaders of that movement.
P.S. I dont know where exactly you stand on the political spectrum?? But social Justus, is almost always a code word for socialism. This idea of health care for all doesn't talk at all about how many new doctors need to enter the field to fulfill it. Nor do they mention the fact many doctors are going to leave the field if the current bill passes congress. Using any sense of reason at all how can a plan save money cover more people and make anything better while cutting reimbursements to the very doctors we need to treat us ? The bill before reconciliation has no provisions for doing any of the things the American peoples have said they want reformed.

[Guidothesemipsuedocaptitalistpig]

The defeat of our constitution place the congress in the position of being more a politburo than an American congress. This is what progressives have been praying and working for for the last 60 years,.
They are praying the willing media can make their lack of action, a more serious problem to the American people than seeing the real problem being a liberal ideology not even really trying to work inside the constraint of the constitution.
Frankly.. I do not want the health care of the other country's who claim to have a national system. I personally have witness many in those country's ( who can afford to do so) come to America for treatment. I say those who think this is a good direction for our country can go there and tell us how good the grass is on the other side. Its nation free and equitable in label only not in practice.

[Mary A.]

I'm definitely not the staunch conservative you are, Guido. I see good in both conservative and progressive ideals. I do believe the free market isn't working for health care. Something has to be done, but I don't believe this bill is the answer. I don't want to subsidize other people's health insurance any more than I already am. I don't know what the answer is.

[Guidothesemipsuedocaptitalistpig]

Well Mary.. If you think about it? the market for health care is not free market at all it is already heftily regulated by the clown trying to claim we need to dismantle the system that they already helped create the inequities in the system as it is now.
If you knew more about me you would see I am actually very liberal in some things. What you do, (or do not do) to your body or in your home is of no concern to me or anyone else the way I read the U. S constitution.
The bill before congress in any incarnation they chose to pass it will just about guarantee two things.
(1) Your taxes will go up. If not directly by way of added costs by either your insurance providers or other fees placed on retirements etc.
(2) Health care will have to be in some way rationed, as you are adding 30 million people who due to the fact they are not insured, tend to go to the doctor only when they feel they will get much more ill, or disabled if they do not. Many doctors even Obamas own cousin feel the bill in congress will insure many in the medical profession will not stay there as it would pay less and less for more and more red tape from the practitioners standpoint.

The republicans, (of which I am not a member of ) did have some very small but extremely potent changes that would have made huge differences in yours and my cost of insurance.

One of those was the ability for current providers to compete across state lines adding to the pool of sick and healthy persons they insure (much as the democrats are screaming needs to be the reason for a public option) why??

Another point Obama's own cousin made was there is very very little in this bill to cut fraud or abuse in the current system while adding a whole new level of bureaucracy to an already highly regulated industry.

I completely agree those two things needed to be done. Sooo why is it the bill in congress doesn't really address any of those things??

My health care is provided for the most part by V.A as I am a disabled Vet. So, as near as I can tell? none of this will directly effect me as V.A seems to be a sacred cow even for some Dems However.. I see some especially ironically people like ZZZZZZZZ.. as being the ones this bill will literally destroy the level of care they already receive to ration it away to people the government thinks need it worse than those who pay ( or have paid for) their whole life by retiring from a company that provided it as a benefit not a god given right.

Thanks for your time and patience reading my sometimes fragmented posts.. I do have a permanent brain disorder that causes the issues with my context sometimes.. I hope this one is put together in a cogent manner.. I am back in school to help with this problem.

[Mary A.]

You do fine, Guido, and good for you for seeking education.