Hogging the Hysterics

[Progressive Tiger]

Greetings, Torchers. As a newbie here I would like to say that I have followed your postings for quite some time (actually, since the demise of the "Soup") and now feel compelled to submit my own contribution.

I would like to call upon my fellow liberals to come out of the shadows and be as hysterical about some of our core beliefs as a number of conservatives seem to be lately. Why should they get to have all the fun? I thought we were supposed to be the radicals. Doesn't anyone remember the sixties? 

Anyway, I'd like to be the first to congratulate my socialist/communist/the-guy-wasn't-even-born-here/pals-around-with-terrorists/he's-destroying-the-country/President for tricking President George H.W. Bush into signing UN Agenda 21 TWO DECADES AGO and waiting until now to unleash its devastation.

Brilliant strategy and obviously something we libs need to jump up and down about.

[XLFD]

Agenda 21 was a non-binding UN 'agenda' that Bush signed during re-election time.  Few conservatives or tea party members would claim that GHWB was an exemplar president.  His capitulation on such 'agendas' and recantation on 'new taxes' was why he was not re-elected.  We welcome all honest debaters here at the Ludington Torch, and invite all progs and libs to give us their take.  

Please start the discussion by calming some of the fears that have been expressed here recently, and not just give us a history lesson.  

[Progressive Tiger]

My intent was neither to give anyone a history lesson nor calm anyone's fears. I have done my own research on Agenda 21 and suggest that anyone who has an interest in it to do so as well. I was simply calling for my fellow libs to bring out some of our own hysterics regarding issues near and dear to us. From a liberal politically tactical point of view, it only helps the democratic party when the opposition fans the flames of hysteria over issues which many people consider to be somewhat benign (See the last presidential election).

I was also trying to inject some liberal humor into this forum, XLFD. If liberals are not welcome here, please say so and I will reluctantly withdraw from this forum.

[XLFD]

Feel free to bring the liberal and progressive hysterics here, Tiger, but be warned, they may be challenged more than the conservative and libertarian hysterics by the members herein. 

[Progressive Tiger]

Thanks for the encouragement, XLFD, but so far I think my attempt to import some levity is failing. I had a fleeting thought of asking you if I could create a grief support group here for people struggling with the horror of a second Obama term, but on second thought...nah.

[XLFD]

What you are saying is the levity attempt is having a hard time getting off the ground? 

That's a pun noticing that 'levity' and 'levitation' come from the same Latin root word 'levitas', meaning 'lightness'.  

May I suggest some lighter topic to begin your levity attempts at than Agenda 21?  Even if you think those who are alarmists about it are misguided, there is some cause for such alarm which are hard to allay, if you look at the current trend of all levels of US Government getting more powerful and more tyrannical even under democratic (small 'd') control.

[Willy]

Hogging

What is your opinion on Agenda 21. Do you think it poses a threat to the U.S. Constitution or do you think it's intent is to improve the quaility of life?

[Progressive Tiger]

Willy, my opinion of Agenda 21 is that it is an issue which will continue to erode the Republican Party's image and health. More than a few Republicans share my opinion that the once sensible conserving party has lost its moorings over too many conspiracy theories, among other things.

I don't believe that UN Agenda 21 is a threat to the U.S. Constitution (which I took an oath to defend, by the way). I believe the intent of Agenda 21 is to recommend ways to improve the quality of life for a growing world population. I'm not losing any sleep worrying about it.

[XLFD]

William,

That last comment was a bit of an overstatement.  There are many liberals that are far from being communists.  Most business-owning liberals, for example.  Liberals, like conservatives, come in many shades.

[Progressive Tiger]

Wow, Mr. Bailey. I awaken from my slumber this morning to this?

"...By the way Liberals are Communists!"

Liberals are communists.

Tiger is a liberal.

Therefore, Tiger is a communist.

Is that the syllogism you are suggesting?

I will submit that some liberals are communists, but Tiger isn't one of them. Tiger spent three Vietnam tours killing communists and multiple tours elsewhere killing other folks. And I still haven’t forgiven Jane Fonda.

[AQUAMAN]

Very well stated William but in all reality I'll bet it's way over the head ov the Tiger.

[AQUAMAN]

Tiger what worries you most, your party, or all American people and ways in liberty? Do you believe that the individual should always be superseded by the masses wants and needs or that the individual has more rights? Does the Constitution pose a greater threat to liberty than UN Agenda 21 or vice-versa? Is the US Constitution a conspiracy unto us all now, or a guarantee in protecting liberty? Methinks you know all too well that you and your liberal progressive types pose the greatest threats to American liberties to be replaced by total Government rule and intervention into our liberties as many times and ways into the years ahead as is possible, and on all scores in our lives. The "poop-soupers" were the ones way about turning the country into a socialist nation, and have somewhat achieved that in part in this warped moment in history. Can you actually say you are proud now? Personally I just wonder how much more we have to put up with in this regard. I guess when we give an inch, we are asking to be taken the total mile ahead, or should I say behind. Oh yeah don't lose any sleep over lost liberty, it will have to be debated and brought down a notch or two more everyday to keep you happy, only protectors in our God given liberty will lose the sleep.

[Progressive Tiger]

Ok, AQUAMAN I'll try to respond as well as I can.

"Tiger what worries you most, your party, or all American people and ways in liberty?"

My party doesn't worry me so much now that we have won the presidential election for a second term. The Democratic Party has never lacked for radical positions held by some of its members. Ours is a big tent, so we expect diversity in ideas.

When you write “all American people” are you including citizens of any ethnicity, religious preference, sexual orientation, political affiliation, etc? That would be quite a spectrum to worry about.

 I’ll tell what does cause me some consternation: it’s the fracturing and uncertain future of the Republican Party. A growing number of Republicans are openly lamenting the fact that the party was hijacked first by evangelicals and more recently by Tea Party advocates, which had the effect of pushing the Party into extremist positions that were hard sells to many women and minorities. We need a viable two-party system, and unless the Republican Party adjusts to changing public attitudes and demographics it will drive itself into political insignificance. Such an outcome would be a gift to many Democrats, but I’m not comfortable with my party running the whole shebang. The weeping and gnashing of teeth by Torchers suffering total world Democratic domination would interfere with my sleep at night.  (Trying to inject humor here, people.)

"Do you believe that the individual should always be superseded by the masses wants and needs or that the individual has more rights? "

I would prefer that individual rights are paramount; however, I accept that an organized society typically requires some limitations on individual rights.

"Does the Constitution pose a greater threat to liberty than UN Agenda 21 or vice-versa?"

I don’t believe that either document poses a threat to liberty. The U.S. Constitution has stood the test of time with amendments created when Americans saw the need. UN Agenda 21 is a “pie-in-the-sky “ wishful fantasy that will likely never see fruition. 

" Is the US Constitution a conspiracy unto us all now, or a guarantee in protecting liberty?"

I don’t view the U.S. Constitution as a conspiracy.

"Methinks you know all too well that you and your liberal progressive types pose the greatest threats to American liberties to be replaced by total Government rule and intervention into our liberties as many times and ways into the years ahead as is possible, and on all scores in our lives." 

Methinks you don’t know me well enough to make that assumption. I don’t want government telling you how many or which types of firearms you should be allowed to possess (unless you are a criminal or have been diagnosed as crazy), nor do I want government telling you and your significant other what can or can’t be done with your bodies. I don’t want to see totalitarianism in this country any more than I would want to see anarchy. 

"The "poop-soupers" were the ones way about turning the country into a socialist nation, and have somewhat achieved that in part in this warped moment in history."

I wasn't aware that the “soupers” goal was to create a socialist nation, but then I joined their forum late, so I might have missed their manifesto. They did seem like a friendly bunch, though.

" Can you actually say you are proud now?"

I am proud that the Democratic Party succeeded in electing our presidential candidate. Wouldn't you be proud if your candidate had won?

"Personally I just wonder how much more we have to put up with in this regard. I guess when we give an inch, we are asking to be taken the total mile ahead, or should I say behind."

As long as the country remains a democracy where citizens vote their choices you will have to put up with whatever the electorate decides. I wasn't thrilled with eight years of the last Republican administration, but I survived the experience. 

"Oh yeah don't lose any sleep over lost liberty, it will have to be debated and brought down a notch or two more everyday to keep you happy, only protectors in our God given liberty will lose the sleep."

As I stated previously, you don’t know me that well. I was a protector of liberty for twenty years as a soldier and I lost my middle son to Operation Iraqi Freedom. Members of my family have been soldiers in most of the wars this country has fought. I know the price of liberty and I've earned the right to sleep.